Sunday, December 17, 2006

Iran Revolution ends the Holocult

The Iranians may not even be aware of it, but their hosting of the recent Holocaust conference may prove to be the most important milestone in their history since the Islamic Revolution under Khomeini. Western politicians and media certainly grasped the significance of the event, with Germany's premier Merkel standing shoulder to shoulder with prime minister Olmert of the "only-democracy-in-the-middle-east-that-is-not-a-democracy" - the apartheid state of Israel - and with BBC television news presenting the bizarre spectacle of discussing, rather than reporting on, an alleged anti-Semitic conference whilst the images in the background showed traditionally clad Orthodox Jews happily in attendance.

When the Islam-hating Western media attacked the prophet Muhammad under the pretence of freedom of speech, Iran retaliated by testing the limits of those freedoms with its own holocaust cartoon competition. In doing so they stumbled across the most jealously guarded dogma of secular Western society, the Holocult. Whereas questioning and reviling religious beliefs is almost a cornerstone underpinning the mindset of those societies, even genuine historical research into the subject of a subsection of the 60 million who died in the second world war is prohibited and most certainly leads to being ostracised in public: The suffering of the Jews may not be questioned since "if it were to be proven that "The Holocaust" has, in fact, been stage-managed for political reasons in order to promote Israeli interests, then the State of Israel and the United States as public players, and the global Zionist organizations as private lobbying entities would have to accept their share of responsibility for the damage, suffering and hardship they have wrought upon the Middle East and the world and, accordingly, they should be held accountable."

The latter is a quote from communiqué no. 16 of Argentina's growing opposition movement MSRA or Argentine Second Republic Movement, who intend to host a Holocaust conference of their own in order to examine how the Holocaust has been used propagandistically for political ends following the end of World War II. Rather than a one-off event, the Tehran conference is the beginning of the unravelling of the special status that Israel and Zionist Jews enjoy in the world justified by their special suffering at the hands of the Germans. The issue is not whether Jews suffered during World War II but that this suffering has been exploited since in what Finkelstein called the "Holocaust industry". For the last half century, only Jews and retired politicians, the latter in their memoirs, were permitted to voice criticism of Israel and the Zionist lobby. Meanwhile, with some historical distance, many more people are demanding to have a say in the matter, although others, like the Muslim American Society (MAS) Freedom Foundation feel the need to curry favour by stating "True Muslims must never deny the Holocaust" and in the words of Ibrahim Ramey, the Director of their Human and Civil Rights Division: "The evidence of this crime, and the horrible magnitude of this killing, is irrefutable. From sources as varied as Nazi war records, film documentation, and most importantly, the testimony of survivors and witnesses, we know that the mass murder of European Jews was, indeed, the single greatest crime of genocide in the twentieth century." - whereas the communiqué from Argentina questions why, if World War II cost more than 60 million lives in Europe and Asia. mankind's attention is almost solely focused on the suffering of 10% of those victims and millions have been added since then "including almost 2 million Iraqis killed by the Bush Family and their Associates since the First Gulf War in 1991 to date".

Recognising that the label of unique suffering can no longer be worn unchallenged, researchers who questioned certain aspects of the official holocaust story were convicted in political show trials as a warning to others: in France Robert Faurisson or Roger Garaudy, the latter for his substantive book The Founding Myths of Zionism, in Austria David Irving, in Australia Fredrick Toeben, in Germany Germar Rudolf and Ernst Zundel. But with Iran state-sponsoring a conference on the subject and inviting eminent Rabbis to attend, all this effort has come to naught. The topic will not go away and awkward questions are going to be asked.

As a gentile European I may not ask these questions without penalty, but Rabbi Moishe Arye Friedman, chief Rabbi of the Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish Community in Vienna, Austria, did not prostrate before the God of Zion and did not hesitate to attend the Tehran conference decried by the Muslim American Society as immoral and motivated by racial hatred. In his address to the conference he stated that the founder of the Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already spoke in his first diaries of a number of six million Jews who were allegedly threatened in Europe and that, according to Herzl, the so-called Jewish state would only have a chance if there was a disaster for these six million European Jews, as well as that the Bolshevists and the British government already used the six million figure in their war propaganda against Germany during the first world war. He further talked about the collaboration between the Nazis and the Zionists, and added that he was sure that the last word about the real or actual number of the victims had not yet been spoken, mentioning that in 1990 the number originally specified of four million victims of Auschwitz had been reduced to approximately 900,000 to 1.1 million whilst the six million figure remained unchallenged.

Now to be consistent, Austrian prosecutors would have to charge the Vienna Chief Rabbi with Holocaust denial, but such a trial would further dent the credibility of the laws protecting the official version of events as well as that of the Shoah story itself, repeatedly embellished by Hollywood productions. It is, therefore, highly unlikely, that the Rabbi will be dragged before a court to answer on charges of anti-Semitism.

Meanwhile there are two strands to the unofficial debate about the holocaust: on the one hand historians demand that this episode of history must not be barred from proper scientific scrutiny in order to separate myth from reality. Guiseppe Furioso, for example, asks why there is no documentary evidence of the gassings nor any mention of it in Churchill's memoirs or by any other political figures of the time.

The other, and more potent, strand is the questioning of the Pax Americana or victor's justice established with the Nuremberg Trials and the propagandistic exploitation of Jewish suffering for imperial ends. Just as president Ahmedinejad of Iran convincingly argues that if the Germans tried to exterminate the Jews then they should be responsible for resettling them in their own country rather than making the Palestinians pay the price, others, like the Argentineans, point out that powers like Israel who stole Palestinian land and the United States of America who stole Native Indian land have not moral authority to play world policemen in the name of the International Community.

The tide is changing and the Argentinean press release points to the fact that its effect is not lost on the pro-Zionist camp: "Interestingly", it says, "the Zionist pro-Israeli mainstream media implicitly admits that any such investigation poses a grave danger to Zionism. Amidst all the insults and threats from such newspapers like the Los Angeles Times, in their 13-Dec-06 issue however, they ran an article called Holocaust denial can be dangerous" which concludes by saying that, "...attacking the legitimacy of the Holocaust allows....(attacking) the legitimacy of Israel, which was created by the United Nations as a result of the Holocaust. If the first act didn't happen, then the second act wasn't necessary." In a way this let the cat out of the bag. Israel's days are numbered if the last great "religious" taboo of not discussing the true facts and dimensions of the holocaust is broken, and with the dollar in accelerating decline and US marines taking a beating in Iraq, Iran - threatened with a pre-emptive strike by the United States for alleged nuclear weapons of mass destruction - seems to have successfully managed to cut the Achilles heel of the current Anglo-Zionist world order.

88 Comments:

At 17 December 2006 at 17:31, Blogger Matthew said...

As for using the Holocaust as propoganda, I certainly agree. As for why the "non-Islamic" world wants to focus on an extermination attempt at totally wiping out a race of people...well, I would tend to agree with you there. Hitler wanted to wipe out many races. Stalin even wiped out his own people. But there are two other issues that need to be addressed with this post.

One...you never mentioned how the Islamic community screams "Crusaders" everytime something doesn't go their way. The Crusades were centuries ago. We're talking about a mere 60 years since the Holocaust.

Two...you might want to look internally, at your own religion, to see who has killed the majority of Iraqis in the last 15 years. I tend to think that the Islamic extremists would prefer to wipe every non-Muslim off the face of the earth. Anyone who believes the Americans are in Iraq to exterminate the Muslims are totally uneducated as to what is happening there. Your bias is extremely evident Mustaqim...though I agree with parts of your post.

 
At 17 December 2006 at 17:38, Blogger Matthew said...

Speaking of propoganda, "US Marines taking a beating in Iraq,"...where did you get that totally blatent lie? I would suggest entrenching yourself with those Marines on the ground in Iraq, in order to see this "beating", before you go making propogandist comments that you know nothing about...other than what you read in the Islamic media. You're doing the very thing you claim to hate!!

 
At 18 December 2006 at 02:08, Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Hitler wanted to wipe out many races.'

Rubbish. Who says so? What documents have you got to substantiate this trash?

 
At 18 December 2006 at 03:40, Blogger Matthew said...

'Rubbish. Who says so? What documents have you got to substantiate this trash?'

....have you done any research on the Nazis? I can't believe you even have the gaul to ask that. But if documentation is what you want...it's what you'll get.

...you may want to ask Mustaqim where he gets his "rubish" statements concerning America's intent in Iraq and the "beating that the Marines are taking"...speaking of rubish!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_race

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6117744.stm

...just for starters. I'll have more for you!!

 
At 18 December 2006 at 08:07, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matthew,

Nobody is disputing that Hitler was a vile piece of work, at least not the author of this blog as far as I can tell. As Muslims and the largest followers of a Semitic religion on Earth, we would have probably also been on the Nazi hit list if the Nazis had got their way and were not stopped.

As for the killing of the Iraqis over the last few years you may want to contemplate on the words of Madeline Albright who stated that half-a-million dead Iraqis was a price worth paying. The civil war in Iraq was cemented the day the Americans invaded and the fight, as with any occupation, is between those who support the occupation and those who are opposed to it. Hence why we recently had some Sunni Tribes in Anbar province locked in battle with the Sunni insurgency.

And the marines are indeed getting a serious beating! They have been confined to a small sector of the green zone, unable to travel even down the airport road without being shot and bombed and unable to travel to large parts of the country as many areas have now been taken over by the insurgents. I suggest you track down some of Patrick Cockburn’s writings in The Independent in order to learn how inadequate the US army is. At this point in the neo-con plan the marines should have been entrenched in either Tehran or Damascus but they can’t even get past the green zone in Baghdad, if that isn’t a drumming I don’t know what is.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 08:35, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Soldier In Iraq Says This War Cannot Be Won!
source: http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1166374049.html

Soldier In Iraq Says This War Cannot Be Won!

"Morale Of The Platoon At An All-Time Low"

"He Has No Faith In The Politicians Who Sent Him There"

[Thanks to Elaine Brower, The Military Project, who sent this in.]

December 04, 2006, Letters To The Editor, The Oregonian

To the Editor:

I have a son in Iraq: the 1st Armored Division of the Army, stationed at a remote outpost near the hotbed Ramadi.

Last week his platoon lost two to injuries -- one a result of shrapnel to the testicles, the other a leg wound from small arms fire.

They're down to 15 in the platoon. Nearly every day they're out on patrol, generally by foot. Every day, they're vulnerable, their lives held open to the potential of death or injury.

Two weeks ago he called by satellite phone, awakening Amy and me in the dead of the night. Machine gun fire was all around him, the sound of war filling our ears and hearts with grief and fear of loss.

He wanted to tell us that he loves us, that he was on a dangerous patrol and that if anything happened to his life, he would take his love for us to his death and beyond.

He made it through that day and night. As this is written, he is still here with us. His tour was to end the first week in November but he was extended until next February.

He said that the morale of the platoon was at an all-time low.

He said that the war is creating more insurgency, rather than less.

He says that he cannot trust anyone in an Iraqi military uniform.

He said that most of the Iraq people do not want us there.

He says that this war cannot be won!

He has no faith in the politicians who sent him there.

Question, America: Whom would you listen to, the soldier in the field or the padded politician in office in reference to how this war is really going?

LARRY TURNER, Malin

 
At 18 December 2006 at 14:46, Blogger LSU said...

For the Flyingimam, funny how you leave out that Hitler recruited Muslims to kill Jews also. I guess that does not fit into your anti-Western, anti-everyone except Muslims mindset. Trying to equate the death of Iraqis in the Gulf Wars and the Holocaust is absolutely retarded. The Gulf Wars were fought to evict Saddam from Kuwait, a legit operation, and the Holocaust was the greatest purge of racism we have ever seen. All Ahmedinejad is doing is trying to get less support for Isreal and the West by turning the Western powers against each other. Nothing more. This is plain as day to see. But since most of the Middle East is uneducated they look up to these so called "religious educators" as there only source of info, which in reality are breeding and brainwashing their youth, just like Nazi Germany mind you, to hate. Make no mistake that terrorist groups have the same salutes as Nazi germany for a reason. It all goes back to the Grand Mufti and his aliiance with Hitler. Iran is building a bomb with the help of China, Russia, & North Korea. Lets not also forget that Ahmedinejad is calling for the total annihilation of Isreal once and for all. Sounds like a peaceful religion to me. If Bush were to say Iran needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth what would come upon us here in the US? Condemnation, sanctions? Bush would be impeached asap. Which I am sure you would love. B/c no liberal Democrat is going to stand up and fight against the Neo-Facsist Muslims and their quest for world domination. Something the Chinese call: Hegemon.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 15:41, Blogger Matthew said...

Well, I'll try to answer this in order.

You're certainly right about Hitler. He would most certainly have had major issues with today's form of Islam...simply because it put someone else on the pedestal other than him....and the fact that most Muslims are not of the Aryan race would have made his hatred that much worse. You're right...Mustaqim did not bring up Hitler. So I'll leave that one alone.

As for the war in Iraq, I don't hold those who haven't been there, and who only read and see what the media portrays, accountable for not knowing what's actually going on. And just for everyone's information....there is a distinct difference in the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marines. With the exception of a couple of Marine Units..in and around Baghdad..the Marines are in the Anbar Province. The Anbar Province includes Ramadi, Fallujah, Hit, Haditha, and the Syrian border. The thing that irritates me more than anything is to hear about how the Americans are getting pounded. What you read, as you quoted those letters, are from single troops, in specific units. Keep in mind that there are 150,000 troops in Iraq. You are seeing a needle in a haystack with these letters. If you were to go to any major industrial organization in the world, you would have more dissent and lower morale than what you are reading from our media. Basically, if we're not blowing things up, and toppling dictators, we must be losing the war and getting pounded...right?

What's so frustrating is that our own policy won't allow our military to do what it needs to get the job done. Militarily, those letters are correct, in that, we can do nothing more than that which we have already done. And that's because of our own policy. But don't be mislead into believing that the Marines are taking a beating.

With all this being said, what I have been trying to get Muslims, such as Mustaqim, to admit, is their role in all of this. I guess it's the Americans who are driving trucks into the crowded streets of Baghdad, luring jobless Iraqis to it, then blowing up in their faces!! Why do we always get blamed for the stupid decisions of others? It's time for both sides to take responsibility for their actions. America and its Allies have certainly made mistakes. But it takes two to have a war. I have a hard time understanding why Muslims can't admit their part in this thing. It's really sad that the peaceful Muslim majority is being bullied into submission by the extremists. I'm afraid the extremists will have a devastating effect on the peaceful majority, that will only bring more hatred to the West. Walk the streets of Baghdad, Fallujah, and Ramadi, and you will see this up close and personal. What a shame!

 
At 18 December 2006 at 16:15, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>>America and its Allies have certainly made mistakes. But it takes two to have a war.

'Two' to have a war, are you serious. Almost every Muslim organisation in the entire world warned that the war would be a disaster. The Arab league stated that it would be like: 'opening the gates of hell'. Apart from bin Laden, Zarqawi, and a handful of Iraqi puppets in London and Washington no other Muslim wanted this war, therefore we shouldn't accept responsibility for anything. This is an Anglo-Saxon disaster conceived and hatched by leaders proclaiming to be followers of Christ (peace be upon him).

Colin Powell has just stated today that: 'The United States is losing the war in Iraq but sending more troops to Baghdad is not the best way to change course, former Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Face The Nation.' This is hardly 'single troops, in specific units'.

To add insult to injury, the Venezuelans, Cubans, Syrians and Iranians are watching the US army get a hammering and realising that you don't need a million dollar bombs in order to defeat a military 'hyperpower', you just need a handful of strategically placed IED's and a steady flow of coffins returning to the gullible folks back home before they begin to realise how much nonsense they have been fed. As Ahmedinajad has stated, its time to dismantle the discriminatory global system that allows a a handful of selected countries to dictate and terrorise large swaths of the Earth.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 17:28, Blogger Matthew said...

Scary!! You still haven't at one single moment acknowledged the role of Islam in this war. Just keep blaming America for your crazy suicide bombers who MAKE A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO BLOW THEMSELVES UP ALONG WITH INNOCENT PEOPLE TRYING TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILIES!!! And YES, they are single letters from individual units!!! You have shown your ignorance in many ways here. First, you use letters from the troops, then you use a quote from one American political figure. But the scariest thing in this whole response, is the fact that you seem to follow the actions of Ahmadinejad and praise him for it. Tells me just how brainwashed the Muslim people are. Now I see why you backed Hitler. So why don't you tell us how you really feel..no sugar coating here. What is the goal of Ahmadenejad and the Muslim "Nation"? Is it to dominate the world? Is it to rid the earth of the infidels? Sounds scarily similar to the Nazis.

By the way, I'm proud to be a member of the United States Marine Corps. I have served nobly and proudly in Iraq. I have seen what we have tried to provide for the people of Iraq...and have seen just how much the Islamic extremists love those same Iraqis we are trying to provide a better life for....they just blow them up, cut their heads off, tie them up and execute them....why would I want to serve a God who apparently justifies these measures? Why?
So tell us how you really feel? No sugar coating?

 
At 18 December 2006 at 18:06, Blogger Mustaqim said...

To "Matthew" who sounds very much like that "Marine" who used to post here, I have just this question: Was it not Prescott Bush, great grandfather of the current president, who financed the Nazi party (together with Bert Walker and the Rockefeller gang)? If you don't know what I'm talking about, maybe I have to write a piece including all the facts. If you wouldn't want me to, stop being so smug and self-righteous.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 18:30, Blogger Matthew said...

Self righteous!! I've have admitted on many occasions over a span of a year on your blogs, that America is not without fault in this whole shindig....what I'm looking for is someone in the Muslim community, like yourself, who can admit the shortcomings of your Muslim brethren, who seem to be doing plenty of destruction on their own. You can post whatever you want too. By all means, post it!! It gets really old reading propoganda like your own, blaming everyone but yourself and your internal brethren. Why is that so hard for you? Who's the self righteous one here?!!

 
At 18 December 2006 at 18:47, Blogger Mustaqim said...

What a wally you must be. Of course, I criticise and, if necessary, expose Muslims where they go wrong. Go and read my blog. I exposed the Muslim Council of Britain's backdoor dealings with the gay lobby. In this very post I criticise the Muslim American Society for their ill-informed and submissive announcement to appease the Zionist lobby. But you kept coming back to the Nazi era as if you were an expert of it and tried to wield it as a big stick, insinuating that criticising Israel is akin to supporting Naziism. And so I merely hint at the fact that the current American dynasty (Bush & Co) running this mad war enterprise in Iraq and profiteering greatly (Halliburton) from innocent people's misery were the very same people who engineered the Nazi rise to power and WWII (also profiteering greatly from people's misery, of course), and you go stumm and return to your same old mantra. Now if Muslims had started WWII I would happily condemn them for it and apologise, but get real mate, they didn't, yet they did pay a hefty price for it, just like everybody else.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 19:05, Blogger Matthew said...

However, the only ones you condemn are the ones who go outside the Muslim norm by "uppeasing" the "Zionists". You don't condemn them for their part in this "misery" in the middle east. It seems to me that you are doing the very thing you're accusing me of. You just go right back to your "America and the West is to blame for the world's problems!" I have no doubt that you are a very intelligent person. You obviously do much research and put much time into your writings. That...I respect. What I don't respect is your "blind eye" to the other side of this issue. Like I said, I don't fault you guys completely for your ignorance to what is happening in Iraq....because you are not there seeing what is happening on the ground and in the communities. But I'm sure that the sources you use for your propoganda are the authority on the issues you present. I'm sure I could go just as deeply on issues seeing my side of things. I'm only asking you to see both sides. You turn a blind eye to your own people!! Not the ones that do such an indespicable thing such as uppease the "infidels". How bout those who continue to slaughter their own?

 
At 18 December 2006 at 19:31, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matthew,

Either you don't understand or choose not but the mayhem in Iraq all stems from the fact that the US/UK decided to invade a sovereign country on a pack of lies, decapitate their leadership, standby whilst anarchy and mayhem took root and then imprison, torture and sexually abuse some of their countrymen (incl. both males and females). And then you wonder why poll after poll shows that the majority of Iraqi's want the US out! No matter how benign your intentions may have been people do not like being invaded or occupied and history has shown time and time again that all invaders will be met with resistance.

Now, if you want me to condemn the fact that some Iraqi's have resorted to banditry, crime and terrorism then by all means we condemn that as our religion is one of peace, justice and honesty. Think back to the LA riots when there was a break down of law and order that allowed some crooks to come out of the woodwork and take advantage of the situation. Well that's what's happening in Iraq but on a much larger scale. Yes, there are some truly vile criminals amongst the Iraqi insurgents but don't mistake this by thinking that if we only we could just liquidate the criminals then the rest of the Iraqis would roll over and start tickling our bellies, because it won't happen. The US has been trying this for the past three years but the insurgency is still going strong. The resistance encompasses a much wider array of people than just a bunch of criminals. The problem is on your side, you should wake up and see the world around you, this isn't a playground for American marines to unleash multi-million pound weapons on poor villagers.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 20:08, Blogger Matthew said...

Like I said, I'm not proud of some of the things our military has done to the Iraqis. I understand that. Considering there were 17 resolutions against Sadaam Hussein that led to that war, I'll be glad to bicker with you on the reasons for going in. If Islam is supposed to be peaceful, then I would ask you to tell me what you think of Al Qaida. I'm not talking about the bandit insurgents...I'm talking about Al Qaida. There are tribes in Anbar that are trying to rid Iraq of Al Qaida. The other problem I have is this...The Pope uses words to describe something from several centuries ago about Mohammed. Muslims didn't like it...so instead of using words to debate the Pope, they just decide to burn churches...is this something I should take as being peaceful?

 
At 18 December 2006 at 20:43, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matthew,

Forget what I think of al-Qaida, lets see what the Qur'an states about al-Qaida.

'The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"' 25:63

O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (4:29-30).

'He who has killed one innocent soul, it is as if he has killed all humanity. And he who has saved one soul, it is as if he has saved all humanity . . .' (5:32).

Every chapter of the Qur'an begins with the verse most gracious, most merciful and as Muslims we are commanded to treat people with respect and justice. al-Qaida and their ilk are truly an abomination. Islam is perfect but that doesn't mean all Muslims are perfect. The narcissistic shenanigans of bin Laden and Zarqawi are a loathsome concept to the vast majority of Muslims. Notice how bin Laden asked Muslims to rise up after 9/11 and out of 1.5 billion people very few heeded his calls. This shows the pacifistic nature of most Muslims. Yes, they are some misguided individuals in our community just like there are in all other communities but don't try to take advantage of this in order to implement a neo-liberal imperialist agenda as blair/bush have done in Iraq. bin Laden is about as representative of your average Muslim as Timothy Mcveigh was of your average Methodist. But the real issue remains, why/how can a select few countries dictate to other people how they should live, who they should elect and what type of economic polices they should implement. This is the crux of the matter. Demolish the discriminatory global system, establish justice and respect and treat people on an equal footing and then see whether we have peace or not - and that's a message that shouldn't bypass any of the totalitarian leaders in the Middle East either. This is what Islam calls us to. Compare and contrast these noble aims with the aims of the neo-cons and the Project for The New American Century.

 
At 18 December 2006 at 21:23, Blogger Matthew said...

This is the type of response I've been waiting on. Thank you for this response. I understand that the large majority of the Muslim nation is peaceful. I know that because I have seen it first hand. I'm very glad to see Muslims such as yourself speak out against Al Qaida and it's evil ways. I understand your concern and disdain for the Americans. However, I think this is something that needs to be made clear..so that the Islamic nation can understand it. America is not trying to take your religion away from you. We are not trying to oppress anyone. We are trying to give the people of Iraq and Afghanistan a chance to have a choice in the way their government is ran, and who runs it. I'm sure it isn't perfect...nor will it ever be. But what the Muslims need to understand is that we are not trying to take your religion away. We are trying to make things better by giving them choices they have never had. We can't rid ourselves of this hatred amongst different religions if we don't give freedom a chance. Ahmadenijad claims that Iran is a free nations...well..to who? It is free for those who follow the Ayotollah...but isn't free for anyone else. Is it a democracy...or is it a government based on the votes of the Ayotollah only? These people literally live under the knife. Why can't religions live in relative harmony in those countries as they do here in America? So how is giving people more choices the same as forcing our beliefs of others? Hope this makes sense.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 00:52, Blogger qrswave said...

Mathew said:

"We are not trying to oppress anyone. We are trying to give the people of Iraq and Afghanistan a chance to have a choice in the way their government is ran, and who runs it."

Are you for real? What the hell are you smoking?

The United States military is in Iraq for two things and two things only - ISRAEL and OIL - and EVERYBODY and ANYBODY with half a brain knows that.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 01:07, Blogger Matthew said...

"The United States military is in Iraq for two things and two things only - ISRAEL and OIL - and EVERYBODY and ANYBODY with half a brain knows that."

Really, and how do you and so many other people know that? Where are you pulling your information from? Where is that money from the oil going? Who's taking that money? And what does our being in Iraq have to do with Israel? Please give me your educated details. I would love to hear this!!

 
At 19 December 2006 at 02:43, Blogger qrswave said...

Really, and how do you and so many other people know that?

Common knowledge.

Where are you pulling your information from?

The Internet.

Where is that money from the oil going? Who's taking that money?

International oil corporations and israel.

And what does our being in Iraq have to do with Israel?

Everything.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 02:54, Blogger Matthew said...

Just what I figured. You really don't know...the internet huh!! So what would you say if I told you that the money that was made from oil profits was going for the rebuilding of Iraq? What would you say if I told you that the Iraqi Government actually has control over that oil? Wait, you would show me some internet link that would prove to me otherwise...right? Why not, give it a shot.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 03:01, Blogger Matthew said...

"Everthing" as it pertains to Israel? Please inform me.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 03:48, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do they lock up in prison scientists and historians who have findings that differ from the official holocaust dogma?
So many arrested for nothing more than doing research. So many beaten, houses firebombed, even a murder, what was the crime? They differed with official Holocaust dogma.

Surely any person of good will can see that these are crimes, whether committed by states or indviduals.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 03:51, Blogger Matthew said...

who are they?

 
At 19 December 2006 at 03:53, Blogger Matthew said...

sorry..."they"?

 
At 19 December 2006 at 08:43, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matthew,

If the US aims were to simply help less developed nations in some form of altruism then no body would complain, in fact countries would be inviting you with open arms. Lets take a look at the Project for The New American Century Document.

PNAC's stated aims are to: "to shape a new century favourable to American principles and interests", to achieve "a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad", "to increase defense spending significantly", and to pursue "America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles."

Further on we read:

...report called "Rebuilding Americas Defenses 2000"? It refers to the new technologies of warfare and goes on: "Potential rivals such as China are anxious to exploit these transformational technologies broadly, while adversaries like Iran, Iraq and North Korea are rushing to develop ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons as a deterrent to American intervention in regions they seek to dominate."

...so when George Bush and his colleagues talk about Saddam Hussein posing a "threat" to America - they don't mean he's going to drop bombs on Washington (how on earth could he without committing national suicide?) - what they mean is that he poses a threat to American military dominance in the Middle East.

And then:

'PNAC's Report... is simply aiding US right-wing militarism and extremist Republican plans for world domination'

This isn't conspiracy theories or disputed facts, its all out in the open, signed by leading architects of the Iraq debacle such as Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

Nothing personal against the US, but all empires behave in the same manner. The very function of an empire is to rule over large swathes of the Earth sucking the resources and channeling the flow of money towards a central ruling clique. All empires are abdominal whether British, French, German, Arab or US and any right-minded person would be opposed to them in all their various manifestations. It's a choice that we all face, either stand on the side of power cheer-leading and actively supporting the bombing of those less economically fortunate than us or stand with the meek and powerless.

I'm glad that any notions you had that Muslims were al-Qaida supporting admirers of hitlerism have evaporated. Stick around, we all have so much more to learn.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 15:00, Blogger LSU said...

We are not in Iraq for oil. Noe are we their for Imperial purposes. Good freakin grief. If we wanted to rule the world we could. If we wanted to rule Iraq for all eternity we would not be spending billions to support an Iraqi government that is suspect. If we wanted to win in Iraq we could. We could just start killing anyone and everyone. But we don't. And that is b/c it does us no good to kill everyone when the goal is to have a free Iraq in a part of the world that breeds hate on a daily basis. We want peace and freedom there. Nothing more. Why would we be in Afghanistan if we wanted to conquer the world? That country is still in the 12th Century. Neither of your ideas hold up. I can think of 20 other countries that are more important to control then Afghanistan.

Face it, the U.S. is having to clean up the U.N.'s crap b/c the U.N can do nothing but talk and hand out food that gets stolen by warlords. The U.N. is a joke and anti-U.S. to begin with. Look at Kofi Annan's farewell address. He blasts the U.S. for everything. Hello Kofi! It was you getting kickbacks from Saddam's oil for food program. Not the U.S. Iraq was under sanctions and the stupid organization that was suppose to be enforcing those sanctions is stealing from the sanctioned countries people. Yet while Saddam has his palaces his people live in poverty. I guess the world will always turn the other cheek when their is genocide and blame the U.S. for whatever the problem is. Then the world will come and beg the U.S. for aid and we will give it to them, only to be blasted again for not giving 10 billion, instead of just 9 billion. What a bunch of hogwash.

What websites are you going to to get you rinfo anyways? Conspiracy theory sites?

 
At 19 December 2006 at 15:18, Blogger LSU said...

If you have a problem with the U.S. then talk to your country's leaders. Tell them to stop coming to us for help. Show some leadership yourselves. Problem is most governments in the Middle East are dictatorial. So the people have no voice. Do you conside Iran & Syria free nations? The PNAC is basically reiterating long term goals. A strong military, economic & political leadership, etc. We already are the leader in all these areas worldwide. Otherwise people would not be flocking here in droves, risking their own lives to cross our borders on a daily basis. I don't see people flying to Syria & Iran to work and have freedom do you? All I see are people who strap bombs to themselves b/c they have no other outlet or decent standard of living to do anything with. So their governments pay their families to go and blow themselves up for the sake of "allah". It is a sick mentality. Then their leaders call for the complete destruction of a group of people and their country: Isreal.

I want you guys to answer 1 question for me: Who does the Grand Mufti of Islam speak for?

 
At 19 December 2006 at 19:27, Blogger Matthew said...

Anonymous..I'm still reading up on that document. I'll address it later tonight. As for the "desire to dominate the world"..I think you can pin that on just about anyone. Every major religion would love nothing better than to dominate the world. Some religions choose different ways to "spread" their beliefs. However, in the end, is it not the jobs of anyone of any religion, to teach that their way is the "only way"? I think that if you will look at Islam, you will find that it is slowly creeping its way into parts of the world it has never existed before. And for what purpose?...to dominate. It would prefer the world be set up in the same fashion the Islamic nations of the middle east are. The difference is..that it uses violence and hatred to get its point across. Although the large majority of the Islamic world would rather just live their lives in peace...the gurus who run their countries...and ultimately the way they practice their religion...don't see it that way. You may be correct about America's ambitions. However, I would rather have a democratic nation, where you can worship as you please dominating me, than a bunch of barbaric dictators who determine exactly how you worship and how you live...and take all your money.

I saw today where Ahmadenijad is seeing where his popularity stands with his people. Now we'll see if it is really democratic come primary time in a few years. Or will it be determined once again by the Ayotollah?!

 
At 19 December 2006 at 21:42, Blogger MAHARAJADHIRAJ said...

Seems like the weight and value of the orginal post has been lost in the hair-splitting that follows in the form of reader comments. I especially like the author's 'Achilles heel' reference because it appropriately describes America's closet of secrets. It also raises questions over America's (and its allies) role in world history particularly since the two World Wars.

The American establishment has traditionally had a huge tolerance for the worst kinds of genocidal dictatorships across the world. Problem arise only when these dictators (many of whom are created by the US) begin mirroring US Foreign Policy ambitions. And that in the eyes of the American leadership is a cardinal sin. So whether it is Hitler or Moussolini or Saddam Hussain America and its allies are there to intervene. Simply because 'some people are more equal'! And curiously enough America, the Globocop that it is, is also the first to reach the scene of such 'crimes'. So what we know about these genocides and crimes against humanity are what we are told by the Americans.

I think people like Robert Faurisson have every right to raise doubts over the scale and volume of the Holocaust, because they serve a very important function in a free world. Sometimes the most important questions are also the simplest. As Faurisson has been asking since the 70s. Especially about the plausibility and effectiveness of gas chambers as places of mass annihilation. Faurrison says it is taboo in America and Europe to even question the Holocaust. Why do you think that is so? The answer is in the LA Times passage quoted in the post above.

If this whole thing sounds like the recent hunt for WMDs in Iraq it's because it is.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 22:06, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps the purpose is to divert, disrupt or destroy any discussion of the falsehoods of the so-called Holocaust.

Instead of seeing a discussion about the Flying Imam's article we see this diversion. Old tactics.

Belgian Siegfried Verbeke was arrested at Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam last year and was to be extradited to Germany for trial.
He was with his Phillipines born wife at the time of the arrest.
His crime? Having a website where people like Germar Rudolph and Arthur Butz have their publications posted. In other words the crime was historical research.

"... Our writings may be banned. We may be thrown into prison. Our mail may be inspected. We may be attacked with fire and bombs. Our homes may be searched. We may be kept from obtaining employment or fired from our jobs. We may be slandered, ridiculed and persecuted like the early Christians. But we will suffer and endure it all, and our enemies will thus achieve precisely the opposite of what they intend. Their actions make others interested in what we do. I believe in truth and justice, and I know that one day they will prevail." - Thies Christophersen (from "Auschwitz and West German Justice," an essay published in the Spring 1985 Journal of Historical Review)

 
At 19 December 2006 at 22:10, Blogger LSU said...

Well mahara the reason the U.S. is the globalpolice is b/c we are the ones called to do it by other counrties unable to defend themselves. If I recall, Japan attacked the U.S., not vice versa. WE were reluctant to attack Germany b/c Germany had not attacked us. You see you are 180 degrees out of phase here. Why is it that only Muslims question the Holocaust? Especially the 1 country that wants Isreal annihiliated with the coming of the 12th Imam? This is the problem the world faces. WE have a religion that says either convert or die. That is not freedom or choice. If that is the freedom which Middle Eastern Muslims are looking for, you better expect a fight. People want to live in peace, not be told what to say and what not to say. Iran's Prez(if you can call him that) is doing the same thing Hitler did by controlling language.

The Holocaust happened. Why is this even disputable? B/c some Muslim who wants to see Jews slaughtered again said it didn't? I guess all those pictures are just made up, Hollywood prints from a Steven Speilberg movie. It was all made up.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 22:15, Blogger LSU said...

Both Siegfried Verbeke & Robert Faurisson are known anti-Semites...lol. Any other valuable anti-Semite folks you want to use??..lol.

 
At 19 December 2006 at 23:27, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First, it is untrue that only Muslims "question the Holocaust." In fact, the majority of Holocaust revisionism has come from Europeans with a fair share from the United States. The Muslims certainly trail in this regard. It is also an oversimplification to say the "Holocaust didn't happen" or even that "the Holocaust happened." The real question is what exactly was the Holocaust? It is often asserted that the Holocaust was the planned and carried out extermination of 6 million Jews by the Nazis and that the means of execution was largely gas chambers. Revisionists express doubt on these three "pillars" of the standard story. That is, the actual number of Jewish dead was far less than 6 million. The great majority died as a result of disease and starvation. There is no reliable documentation or other evidence for the gas chamber story. It is conceded that the Jewish people suffered a tremendous tragedy during this time. Examination and evaluation of this subject however is forbidden throughout much of Europe with leading revisionist scholars like David Irving and Germar Rudolf currently behind bars. For what other historical inquiry are men imprisoned?

 
At 20 December 2006 at 01:17, Blogger Matthew said...

What denying the Holocaust comes down too is this....those who have a deep hatred for the Jews, and for those who support the Jews, looking for any excuse to discredit their existence. Eoes it really matter how they died? Does it really matter if it was 3 million instead of 6 million? The fact is that the Nazis had what was called "The Final Solution"!! However, I'm sure those who still have a hatred for the Jews will find some way to disprove the existence of that also. Why "peaceful" Muslims would rather live under a dictatorship, where they have no voice, and they are told how to worship and when to worship, is beyond my comprehension. But I guess the Americans are there to take their religion away from them? That's funny...considering Muslims live with other world religions in relative peace here in the states. Yet we're still deamed as "Crusaders".

 
At 20 December 2006 at 05:26, Blogger qrswave said...

"Does it really matter how they died? Does it really matter if it was 3 million instead of 6 million?"

Are you for real?!?

How old are you, anyway? 12?

BTW, kudos to the author for an outstanding and thought-provoking piece.

It's posted at my site and circulating - hopefully, FAR and WIDE.

Keep up the great work!

Peace.

 
At 20 December 2006 at 08:46, Anonymous GP said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

I too found this statement breathtaking and extrememly naive:

"Does it really matter how they died? Does it really matter if it was 3 million instead of 6 million?"

The poster really needs to do some simple research as it is the 6 million claim, along with lampshades being made from the skin of Jew-ish captives, Soap being made from the bodies of Jew-ish captives etc, that saw men exectuted, lives ruined, people beaten up, careers ruined, people jailed and billions syphoned off to Israel.

BECAUSE OF THE 6 MILLION CLAIM AND NOT BECAUSE OF A 3 MILLION CLAIM,

Furthermore, why is it that when the evidence is soooo overwhealming, you hear this flimsy retort, what does it matter the numbers?

As for the person who trumpeted some Grand Mufti's involvement with the GERMANS during WWII,perhaps they'd like to read the celebrated books by Zionists,(COULDN'T DENY THE FACTS), namely "The Transfer Agreement" by Edwin Black, which outlines the deals Hitler had with said Jews, or the book "Hitlers Jew-ish soldiers, by Bryan Mark Rigg, which speaks of over 150,000 soldiers of Hitlers army, were in fact Jew-ish, many in his SS and many more being awarded the Iron Cross I (first class) and Iron Cross II (Second class)!

Erm and these Jew-ish service men of Hitlers army reached high ranking officer and general status!

World War two is over, as is the era of the dinosaurs, yet we accept revisionim and corrections of these creatures, but 60 years ago we are told, we cannot got there, why do YOU think that is?

Maybe the world was sold a pony and told us it was a Stallion and continue to tell us it's a Stallion, locking up all those who show us Zebra's, Donkey's, Pinto's, Geldings, Horse's and yes dear!....Bad analogy maybe but....

NEXT!

 
At 20 December 2006 at 10:48, Blogger MAHARAJADHIRAJ said...

Isu, you forget that the US was one of the many countries that DENIED asylum to German Jews at the height of the Third Reich's pogroms. They woke up only when Hitler declared war on the US.

Matthew, I am not a Jew-hater or a hater of any ethnicity. All I am against is the insidious way the US and Israel have used the Holocaust to demonise and later carpet-bomb any nation and ideology that differs from its own. Or stands up up to challenge its hegemony.

In that the US PNAC quoted earlier is ample proof of how much the American NEW WORLD ORDER resembles the Nazi plan for world domination. First create a terrible scenario or state or people that seek to threaten the existence of the civilized world and then go ahead and decimate them. The post-9/11 bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq differ from the witchhunt of the Kristallnacht (1938) following the assassination of the German Embassy official in Paris only in scale, and NOT in intent.

America likes to wear this spit-polished veneer of liberty and freedom only as long as it suits its interests. America's Soviet era McCarthyism is proof of the famous American love of liberty gone berserk. It also smacks of Nazism at its worst.

It has been said before and I say it again that Muslims are in danger of becoming the Jews of the 21st century.

The comments about Muslims being a nation (ummah) of intolerance with a 'with-us-or-against-us' creed that sees the world as a monochrome of kafirhood are based on propaganda. Islam is not a monolith as many people believe. It can be safely said that it is perhaps less exclusivist than Judaism. There is much debate and dissension in the Islamic world. Much of what survives as 'Greek thought' today was surprisingly saved in Arabic translations when Europe was busy burning books as heresies in the throes of the madness called the Middle (Dark) Ages. Many Jews also found refuge in the Ottoman Empire in these dark days.

Revisionists as I said are important. Facts on their own may be sacred but it takes a certain 'perspectivising' to make them teach us new lessons. Especially in a rapidly changing world.

And to tar such intrepid questioners as 'anti-semitic' or anti-this or anti-that is going back in many ways to the Dark Ages.

 
At 20 December 2006 at 14:56, Blogger Matthew said...

You guys totally misread what I was trying to get across. My point was, and I wish I could write with tone, that those who try to discredit the Holocaust do it in many different ways. If one of those ways is to discredit the documentation that says there were 6 million Jews who were killed. My point is this...exactly how many had to die to make it a Holocaust? So if there were only 3 million that were killed, would that not still be grounds for calling it a Holocaust? And the fact that they died from starvation and disease, as opposed to hangings and bullets, shouldn't make any difference whatsoever. The reason they died of disease and hunger was because they were being used to do the Nazis work for them. The Nazis had no intentions of setting them free...EVER!!! Hence we have "The Final Solution"!! So you can twist and turn, try to discredit by numbers, try and make the documentation and film obsolete, all you want. If you do that, then all of your documentation, film, and sources you use for your arguments can be done in the same fashion. Hatred leaves you blind. Your tunnel vision distort truth. But in your eyes, the truth is only what you deem as credible. That makes it twice as dangerous. Hope I was more clear!!!

 
At 20 December 2006 at 20:47, Anonymous GP said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

Mathew, that's my question!

I'm not going to stop posing it to those who believe in the 6 million theory.

So can you please tell me how many people have to die, for it to be deemed a Holocaust?

Be careful now, the bible and the dictionary may be needed to consult before answering correctly, then answering again with the new political meaning.

Prisoners on the losing side of any war, are subject to rationing, disease re (Confederate prison Andersonville.

History tells us that German citizens, not only blitzed by allied bombing and raped in their thousands by Russians, were forced to eat rats etc in order to survive.

Of course some people expect Jew-ish prisoners of war to continue having three meeals a day, right up until the end of the war! This is about considering concentration camp logistics/procurement and not anti anything.

Records show that the Red Cross approved of the diet the concentration camp workers were getting, which was far better than the Japanese were getting from the US at the time. I refer to better times during WWII.

Do you see, that there are issues that need to be clarified and to accept a winners version of events unchallenged by independent researchers and experts, proves nothing other than someone with a vested interest is afraid that their version of events, is not as solid as once was suggested.

Please remember, many men have died because of exaggerations, which horrified the world once, have now been accepted as bogus claims by Jew-ish experts, who realise they could no longer stand by such nonsense.

It therefore cannot be deemed an offence, especially in this case, to seek the truth of the matter. However, it certainly is an offence to bar/imprison/fine/attack those who seek truth, for the truth enables humanity to move forward, once it has addressed its issues regarding its humanity and continued evolution for the better.

 
At 20 December 2006 at 21:03, Blogger Matthew said...

Also remember, that the Concentration Camp workers were not combatants. They were innocent citizens of the nations of Europe, who had absolutely no way of defending themselves. I am sure that the Japanese were probably mistreated by the Allies. I would assume that most of that was because of what they saw in the Japanese occupied territories. War is a terrible thing...no doubt. But comparing innocent people, who were not combatants in the worst war the world has ever seen, to the treachery of the Japanese is not acceptable. Keep in mind that it wasn't just the Jews..it was also gypsies and homosexuals who were in these camps. I do feel that they have been swept under the rug in regards to the Holocaust. That I will agree with. But the Holocaust was a genocide...no matter if there were 5 killed or 6 million. It's sort of like pinning ALL of the deaths in Iraq on the U.S. What sources are credible? Who determines that? How can you have conflicting numbers from two "credible" sources? It's something we will never know. But first hand accounts can be more telling than any "credible" source you may have. And that, we do have.

 
At 20 December 2006 at 21:14, Blogger Matthew said...

Sorry, I need to make myself clear on something I wrote in my last comment. I do not agree that the homosexuals and gypsies should have been swept under the rug. I agreed with the fact that they have been swept under the rug and forgotten. And it's a shame. Sorry, I have a hard time getting across what I mean to say at times...and it lands me in hot water. Hope that clarifies that.

 
At 20 December 2006 at 21:28, Anonymous GP said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

Mathew, whilst i applaud your defence of a people you believe to be the victims of an atrocity, i think facts must speak for them selves.

My analogy is this, if i'm doctor about to perform a tricky bit of surgery, i certainly don't want faint hearted nurser to assist me, in other words emotions aside please, this is about forensics.

YOU SAID:

But first hand accounts can be more telling than any "credible" source you may have. And that, we do have.

9:03 PM

I assume you are referring to eye witness accounts, or accounts from survivors? Please feel free to clarify.

However, Professor Norman Finklestein, author of the book "The Holocaust Industry", appears to cast doubt on such claims. Apparently his parents were at Auschwits.

It does appear from your postion, that you personally see nothing wrong in revisionism, if it is fair and open.

Lastly, my point concerning the Japanese was nothing to do with prisoners, it was to do with the Japanese that were interned.

Hmmm, if you regard the ordinary Japanese as treacherous, for what their leaders did, what do you call those Jew-ish soldiers in Hitlers army?

Seems to me by your definition, there are some Jew-ish people getting away Scot free somewhere?

Perhaps we should agree to lobby for an open investigation of these issues once and for all.

 
At 20 December 2006 at 21:33, Anonymous gp said...

ADENDUM:

Lastly, my point concerning the Japanese was to do with JAPANESE PRISONERS that were interned

 
At 20 December 2006 at 21:41, Blogger Matthew said...

Well, let's look at it this way. I assume you are a religious man. If so, then I assume you believe that your religion is perfect. Afterall, that's what we're all after...correct? With that being said, are you basing your belief in your brand of religion on faith...or on facts? Are they really facts? Or are they books who are telling you they are facts? Have you seen Jesus? Have you seen Allah? Have you seen Mohammed? Have you spoken to anyone who has been to Heaven, come back, and told you it existed? Probably not. But you believe those who have written it down, and who have passed that belief down from generation to generation. If you believe that Allah/God allows good things to happen to you, well, I'm sure that everyone believes their God has done the same for them. My point is...what is the truth? Why do we kill one another over something that there is no factual evidence ever happened? In the same light, why would I not be as apt to believe a first hand account of what has happened, in any situation, as I would a professor who disputes it ever happened. Do you see? We're running around in circles. However, I'll be glad to research right along with you...if that's what you really believe needs to be done!!

 
At 20 December 2006 at 23:39, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry Im late in this thread. And sorry my bad english. Just one thing:

Matthew said...

'Rubbish. Who says so? What documents have you got to substantiate this trash?'

Here you have:

"Ich war nie der Meinung, daß etwa Chinesen oder Japaner rassisch minderwertig wären. Beide gehören alten Kulturen an, und ich gebe offen zu, daß ihre Tradition der unsrigen überlegen ist. Sie haben allen Grund; darauf stolz zu sein, genau wie wir stolz sind auf des Kulturkreis, dem wir angehören. Ich glaube sogar, daß es mir um so leichter fallen wird, mich mit den Chinesen und den Japanern zu verständigen, je mehr sie auf ihrem Rassenstolz beharren."

(I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them.)

Hitlers Politisches Testament, 13.feb.1945

I think this is tipical of Hitler words and mind when it comes to "civilizations", (iranian will easily fall this category) as also he's tipically him, when insulting virulently the jews, whom he deny any actual culture of their own.

But appart, this clear statement simply does not fix with idea of a violent supremacist you are suggesting us.

..."He would most certainly have had major issues with today's form of Islam...simply because it put someone else on the pedestal other than him....and the fact that most Muslims are not of the Aryan race would have made his hatred that much worse."...

At least that's not a fact so self evident in his "ideological" speeches. Hardly you would find any piece of the trash you speak about, except off course when quote him off context.

You can continue saying any trash you like of Hitler while he cannot defend himself. And no one will step out to defend him. But this aspect particularly appears to me incorrect.


Let's try "exactitude!", as someone so rightly put it!

Gust

 
At 21 December 2006 at 01:15, Blogger Matthew said...

Actually Anonymous, I didn't say that. I was quoting someone else who said that. Go back and read it again. However, I understand your point about Hitler...but why are you defending him? And just because he said that, obviously doesn't mean he meant it...just ask Stalin, and the millions of Russians who were slaughtered at the hands of Hitler's Armies of Darkness, just after he had agreed not to invade Russia!! How can you believe a word he says? Just a thought.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 15:16, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I hadn´t count the many times he openly advised he will be doing it one day, or else the germans would have to do it some day.

And the countless times he explained how, after june 1941, he felt "released" of the burden of having to act contrary to this pillar on his plans.

I think many could have saved sacrifices should they have taken literally his words.

nop? Go back and read him again.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 15:21, Blogger LSU said...

Picking up on Mathew's comment. How many must die in order to be considered a Holocaust? What is this obsession with rewriting history anyways? History is history, you can't change it. Whether it is 6 miliion or 3 million does it really matter? They wholesale slaughtered Jews. Period. What is left to debate? In the attempt to discredit Isreal as a legit state, not to mention to kill them all, Muslims in the Middle East bitch and moan about Isreal having lands that need to be given back to the Palestinian people. Well what about Jordan and the East Bank? Since Jordan is not Jewish they get a free pass? This just shows the hypocricy of Muslims and their true intent. An Islamic World Order. Their is s reason why this anonymous person stands up for Hitler. B/c the current state of radical Islam is founded upon Nazism. Hitler had an entire division in Africa that was made up of Muslims. The Grand Mufti down there OKed this division. They both had the same goal: TO exterminate Jews. The great Prophet Mohamed slaughtered Jews in his lifetime while he was in Medina. There is a reason why the terrorist organizations Hamas & Hezballoh have Nazi salutes. There is a reason why little kids hate the West, b/c their countries, Mosques, Madras(sp) & parents brain wash them from the time they can understand words. You got Islamic leaders paying the families of suicide bombers and promising them 72 virgins in heaven. I guess heaven has got to be running short on virgins these days. It is the same set up as Nazi Germany. The problem with this is, the so called "good Muslims" don't do anything to stop it. So in other words they become accessories to it. The whole Holocaust Deniers Convention is a bunch of mind warped psychopaths bent on causing the complete extermination of the Jews once and for all. Listen to Iran's President(if you can call him that) call for the destruction of Isreal over and over again.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 17:31, Anonymous GP said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

ISU, that's my question!

I'm not going to stop posing it to those who believe in the 6 million theory.

So can you please tell me how many people have to die, for it to be deemed a Holocaust?

Be careful now, the bible and the dictionary may be needed to consult before answering correctly, then answering again with the new political meaning.

Prisoners on the losing side of any war, are subject to rationing, disease re (Confederate prison Andersonville).

History tells us that German citizens, not only blitzed by allied bombing and raped in their thousands by Russians, were forced to eat rats etc in order to survive.

Of course some people expect Jew-ish prisoners of war to continue having three meeals a day, right up until the end of the war! This is about considering concentration camp logistics/procurement and not anti anything.

Records show that the Red Cross approved of the diet the concentration camp workers were getting, which was far better than the Japanese were getting from the US at the time. I refer to better times during WWII.

Do you see, that there are issues that need to be clarified and to accept a winners version of events unchallenged by independent researchers and experts, proves nothing other than someone with a vested interest is afraid that their version of events, is not as solid as once was suggested.

Please remember, many men have died because of exaggerations, which horrified the world once, have now been accepted as bogus claims by Jew-ish experts, who realise they could no longer stand by such nonsense.

It therefore cannot be deemed an offence, especially in this case, to seek the truth of the matter. However, it certainly is an offence to bar/imprison/fine/attack those who seek truth, for the truth enables humanity to move forward, once it has addressed its issues regarding its humanity and continued evolution for the better.

So ISU this grand Mufti had a division of arabs in the German Army did he?

How many divisions can you get out of.... say 100,000 men? Please answer that question, as i think it was only today i got the figure of men this Mufti, hired by a Jew had.

Ha Ha, you didn't know that did you, well war is a nasty business and what you see is not necessarily the entire story.

You can never win this debate by taking bits you think fit your argumentative purposes, when there are thousands of us looking at the entire picture.

I thought i'd repeat this post for you, as you appeared to ignore some real good points and i thought we'd all got passed this "I don't care you are the worst" child's play.

Isu, if you are now suggesting that perhaps the 6 million claim is no longer valid and that what's the difference if it is 6 or 3 million, i suggest to you that you are no better than the caesar's of the past, who decided a man's life by the rule of thumb and to those who would be victims of that rule, well it's a 50/50 chance one will lose their life!

Ironic isn't it, that after all these years, the number of dead don't really matter anymore, so long as the hype can live on and the money roll in and your precious Israel can stand tall on the feet of Muslim/Christian children.

THE NUMBERS MATTER TO THE WORLD, AS IT IS ABOUT THE LIVES OF THE SO CALLED DEAD, OR PERHAPS YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT NO SUCH NUMBER OF JEW-ISH PEOPLE DIED AT ANYTIME DURING WWII!

Perhaps you'd like to answer why the curator of Auschwits, Dr Frederick Piper said, live on Camera, to Jew-ish investigator by the name of DAVID COLE, that THERE WERE NO GAS CHAMBERS IN AUSCHWITS UNTIL AFTER THE WAR!

HISTORY IS ALWAYS BEING REVISED, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE REALISE ERRORS WERE MADE.....Now why would you have a problem with that?

 
At 21 December 2006 at 17:46, Blogger Matthew said...

gp...I think you are totally getting the wrong idea about my, along, with ISU's views on the "how many deaths does it take to make it a Holocaust". You're asking us the exact same thing we're asking you. I value each individual life, just as you. However, you guys are the ones who are questioning the number of dead Jews during the Holocaust. So why are you guys questioning the number? See, if you reverse what you're asking us, then we are asking you why, if that number is less than 6 million, is that substantial in your argument? How is that going to change the fact that Jews, even if it were only one, were killed because they were a certain race? It seems as though you are trying to take the focus away from Hitler's true intentions, to a game of numbers. While you're at it, see if you can find what Hitler had to say about the Bolseviks. I'm tired of those who have a deep hatred for the Jews, making excuses for a mad man, who not only killed millions of Jews, but who killed his own officers, his wife, and himself!! Now what was it anonymous quoted way up the strand about what the Quran says about suicide? You guys can't get your focus off your hatred for the Jews, long enough to see through the fog of that hatred. Did you read my response to you about your "facts" vs. my "facts?" This is an ongoing circle we find ourselves in. It all depends on what you WANT to believe. If you can PROVE me wrong on this, by all means, do sir. But we have people killing each other over belief systems, who have NO factual evidence....NONE!!! If you can prove me wrong on that, I would be more than happy to hear your evidence. Otherwise, your game of numbers is futile!

 
At 21 December 2006 at 18:44, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nazi Holocaust in Context of Soviet Holosphage and Zionist Holoexaleipsis
by Joachim Martillo
President
Telford Tools, Inc.
ThorsProvoni@aol.com

A lot of the people attending the Iran Holocaust Conference were unsavory (and most of the attendees identified in the news reports have little or no qualifications as genuine historians+), but ignoring or slighting the importance of the presence of representatives from the Orthodox Jewish Neturei Karta movement is a mistake.

Before the government of the State of Israel found ways to enmesh and co-opt large numbers of religious Jews, anti-Zionist Jewish groups like Neturei Karta used to represent the mainstream in religious Jewish thinking. The few remaining religious anti-Zionist Jewish organizations and communities have maintained their integrity by rejecting all Israeli government subsidization. Like Ahmedinejad and some Holocaust studies specialists, they are concerned
that the Holocaust of popular discourse is misused to justify Israeli oppression of Palestinians and
that common media representations of the Holocaust rarely correspond to the facts.
Both Neturei Karta and Ahmedinejad have a point. Since the opening of Soviet and Eastern European archives to Western researchers, there has been a revolution in scholarly understanding of the beginnings and early history of the Soviet Union.

Soviet mass murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing becomes for all intents and purposes an assembly line phenomenon long before Hitler took power in Germany. The Holocaust and German Nazism itself are only comprehensible in terms of Central and Eastern European fear of the Soviet Union and awareness of Soviet atrocities. Careful analysis of Soviet archival data shows that the Central and Eastern European popular identification of ethnic Ashkenazim with the Soviet Union was quite rational, for Soviet ethnic Ashkenazim formed the quintessential Soviet class and generally filled the leading roles in planning and executing Soviet crimes like the Great Starvation (Holodomor) in the Ukraine, collectivization, dekulakization, the mass shootings by the secret police, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.* Because the mentality of Soviet Ashkenazim and Zionist Ashkenazim is so similar in many regards, it is hardly surprising that alienization, which made entire Soviet ethnic groups aliens in their own lands, has strong similarities to the Zionist process of dispossessing, murdering, ethnic cleansing and genociding the native population of historic Palestine.

While the Eastern block data does in fact suggest that even the preeminent Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg may have overestimated Jewish mortality in the Holocaust, the new information is more important because it indicates that much of the mass murder of Jews during WW2 was unjustified but very understandable reaction to or collective revenge on Jews for the part that a very large segment of the Eastern European and Russian Jewish population played in the commission of Soviet mass murder and atrocities. By the 1940s a lot of Eastern European and oppressed Soviet ethnic groups were more than willing to kill Jews without any incitement from the Germans, and they did, and this killing probably represents approximately half the number of Jewish casualties from mass murder during WW2.

We in America really do have to rethink and revise our understanding of the Holocaust, and if we need to identify an archetypal genocide to use as the measure of all other modern genocides, the Holoexaleipsis, which is the Great Erasure that includes the Palestinian Nakba or Catastrophe, provides the best model. It was planned in cold-blood by racist Eastern Europeans during the late 19th century, the first major mass murders and ethnic cleansing took place during 1947-8, and it continues to this day right before our eyes. The Holoexaleipsis subsumes wholesale demonization of Arabs and Muslims along with the erasure of whole fields of scholarship (including Jewish as well as Arabic and Islamic studies) so that they can be rewritten to justify Zionist and American depredations on the peoples of the Middle East.

+ St. Francis Xavier University Professor Shiraz Dossa was an exception. He presented a paper on the misuse of the Holocaust in the justification for the war on terror.

* The totality of these Soviet crimes constitute the Soviet Holosphage, which is mass slaughter in the effort to fit the populations of the Russian Empire into a Marxist ideological framework by the crudest Procrustean means.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 19:02, Blogger Matthew said...

"While the Eastern block data does in fact suggest that even the preeminent Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg may have overestimated Jewish mortality in the Holocaust, the new information is more important because it indicates that much of the mass murder of Jews during WW2 was unjustified but very understandable reaction to or collective revenge on Jews for the part that a very large segment of the Eastern European and Russian Jewish population played in the commission of Soviet mass murder and atrocities."

This is a lot to process. I guess I'm confused a little. I'm not the brightest person in the world, so you'll have to bear with me on this one. First, genocide is genocide...no matter who committs the crimes. It is a known fact that Hitler disdained the Jews, which ultimately gave birth to "The Final Solution". I'm not sure, exactly, what I have quoted above from your exerpt, is saying? You may have to give this to me in idiot language. Sounds like mass murder from all sides. And it sounds like the Jews took the brunt of it. So I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to pinpoint here?

 
At 21 December 2006 at 19:43, Anonymous gp said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

Ever since i discovered that all was not what it was said it was, in regards to issues surrounding the Jew-ish people and WWII, i have been asking anyone who supported this idea that 6 million Jew-ish people were murdered by the German army, how many people have to be killed for it to be deemed a "Holocaust".

The reason is quite simple really, because this term "Holocaust" was effectively plucked from the air, misused and trumpeted with new meaning.

DO YOU SEE THE DECEPTION?

This Auschwits thing has always been about deception in my view and exposing this deception, the deceivers don't much like it, so they scream and shout and abuse and get verbally nasty and some.

The desire to discover the truth about Auschwhits has NOTHING to do with hate, i personally leave that to those who live off hate and that again is part of the deception in regards to this issue.

You mention BOLSHEVIKS, Karl Marx was Jew-ish real name; Moses Mordecai Levy, Leon Trotsky was Jew-ish real name; Lev Davidovich Bronstein, Lenin was Jew-ish real name; Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, Stalin was Jew-ish,although it has been assumed he was Georgian real name; Vissarianovich Dzhugashvili, The Bolshevik central chairman was Jew-ish a Yakov Sverdlov and on and on and on.

I merely name the movers and shakers of the Bolsheviks who were mainly Jew-ish, adding that the mass murders that these men, caused the populous of Russia goes into the TENS OF MILLIONS!

It is no wonder Hitler didn't like Bolsheviks!

Remember, Jew-ish people were living side by side with German people UNTIL JUDEA DECLARE WAR ON GERMANY, PUBLISHED DAILY EXPRESS MARCH 24TH 1934!

This economic war to bankrupt Germany occured long before any such round up took place.

Do you now see how much history has been distorted and misread?

Can you now see how filling in the gaps can help, as opposed to hinder and being told not to correct the wrongs of the past, ie history books and records.

Lying to cover up this history will never be a good thing,as what is in the dark shall come to light sooner or later, alas in this case 60 years later.

I need not go into anymore detail, only to say that all is not what you think concerning Auscwhits.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 20:04, Blogger LSU said...

Well maybe we should have a revision on the Prophet Mohamed and why he mass murdered Jews in his day. I bet this kind of revision would be seen as justifiable by the Muslim community right? Afterall if Muslims are going to riot over cartoon pictures God only knows what they will do if we revise how many Jews Mohamed killed.

What is there to clarify on the Holocaust? It happened. Period. What we have is a bunch of crazy lunatics trying to rewrite history so that their form of Religion/Ideology can be spread faster and seem more legit and at the same time dicredit and destroy their arch-enemy. By the way who had those lands before the Palestians did?

What I find blatantly retarded is how Isreal was looked down upon recently for attacking Hezballoh inside of Lebanon. Hezballoh is a terrorist organization and an arm of the Iranian military. They took Isreali soldiers captive and Isreal responded. Lets not forget that Hezballoh fights and uses civilians, Mosques, apartments, etc as strategic points which are against the Geneva Conventions to begin with. How does that get overlooked??? Everyone was bent out of shape b/c it was an "unproportional attack" by Isreal. So if Isreal tries to defend itself against invaders they get looked down upon, while Hezballoh blows up buses filled with none military targets and not a word is said. In fact the U.N. won't even disarm Hezballoh b/c of how inept the U.N. is. The only cease-fire is a cease-fire after you killed and destroyed the enemy. What we have in this current "cease-fire" is a pause in fighting. Until we clean out Hezballoh and Hamas their will be no peace. We solved nothing but giving the enemy time to regroup.


Notice Matthew the word “revenge”. Is not revenge a part of the Middle East and Islam? An eye for an eye. How can 1 people be so powerful, the Jews, be so prolific everywhere and be the cause of all of mankind’s problems? Something goes wrong, you blame a Jew…lol. This stuff is no different. So it was the Jews fault they got slaughtered, not Hitler or Stalin, or whoever was wielding the sword. Afterall the Jews started WW1, WW2, and every other war known to mankind right?..lol. Good grief.

Well the Grand Mufti, gp, is the head of a sector of Islam right? How did a Jew cause him to raise 100,000 Muslims to fight for Islam and Hitler? You guys are nuts. Just b/c someone has a theory, an idea, or says something over and over again does not make it fact by any means. The Holocaust happened. Trying to say it was “no big deal” is a little bit suspect and sick. But then again you defend Iran’s President, who says he wants to destroy Isreal once and for all, and who writes a letter to President Bush saying he needs to convert to Islam as a peaceful religious Muslim. WOW! So it is either convert to Islam or meet your doom. Sounds peaceful to me. But that is the day in and day out we get from the Middle East. Isreal, England, the USA, Spain, France, Russia, do I need to keep going?? All of these nations are being attacked by a religion that wants to rule the world. In these people’s eyes there is only one way to live your life and that is a life of Islamic rule. I have seen the videos of Imams, clerics preaching in the Mosques saying an infidel is no higher then a cow that you can sell at market. If you can’t sell him then it is ok to kill him. Is that the world which is to come from Ahmedinejad and the true power in Iran, the Ayotallahs? The head of Hezballoh calls for death to all Jews around the world and that all Zionists should come to Isreal so he can save the time of hunting them down worldwide. Islam is at war with the “infidel” world. Nothing more. What 21st Century nation can say such things on TV and get away with it? Absolutely ZERO! But these clerics & Imams are all over the place doing it. Yet we let them. Here in the US we have freedom to worship how we want and when we want. In the Middle East is that so? Can a Catholic be rest assured he won’t get his throat slit just walking down the street? This is the problem with the Middle East. These countries are controlled by dictators and religious zealots who want to dominate the world with their own brand of religion: Islam.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 20:07, Blogger LSU said...

Mahara: “Isu, you forget that the US was one of the many countries that DENIED asylum to German Jews at the height of the Third Reich's pogroms. They woke up only when Hitler declared war on the US.”

So your point? The US had no reason to get involved in the European dilemma at the time. Why would we stick our noses where it doesnot belong? I can agree to a certain extent nowadays we do stick our noses around in some places, but at the same time if we didn’t the international community would bitch and moan about how selfish we are..lol. It is a no win situation for the US..lol. See the answer is right in front of you. WE did not enter the war with Germany until Germany declared war on the US. Islam has declared war on the US for over 2 decades, it just took 9/11 for it to hit home.

 
At 21 December 2006 at 20:13, Blogger Matthew said...

gp...I'm sure there are bunches of deceptions out there. And no doubt, numbers have been skewed. I'm not going to argue with you about that. I'm actually surprised, and this isn't a shot at you, but that you don't question the number of Russians slaughtered at the hands of Stalin? We'll save that for another day. I think you have overlooked my basic argument here. We both continue to ask each other the same question....ironically enough, from opposite viewpoints. Searching for the "truth" will remain futile...notice I didn't say noble...I said futile. This is a classic case of "he said/she said"...which can be said about three religions caught up in this mess. We will never no the true facts..simply because we have those who prefer to dispute "first hand accounts"...and these first hand accounts can come from either side of the issue, whether it be a proffessor who claims the stories are distorted, or someone who claims to have actually been in one of these concentration camps. A fact is 1 + 1=2. You will not find that in this type of research. Unfortunately, there will be deception from every single party involved in something of this significance. So good luck in your quest. Meantime, I'll claim "God" performs miracles in my life...and Joe Muslim will claim "Allah" performs miracles in his. Which one is right?

 
At 21 December 2006 at 20:25, Blogger Matthew said...

Sorry, I did it again. What I meant to day was "that I didn't say it WOULDN'T be noble"....and yes I can spell know, even though occasionally I'm lazy and just say "no".

 
At 22 December 2006 at 14:08, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Soviet mass murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing becomes for all intents and purposes an assembly line phenomenon long before Hitler took power in Germany. The Holocaust and German Nazism itself are only comprehensible in terms of Central and Eastern European fear of the Soviet Union and awareness of Soviet atrocities. Careful analysis of Soviet archival data shows that the Central and Eastern European popular identification of ethnic Ashkenazim with the Soviet Union was quite rational, for Soviet ethnic Ashkenazim formed the quintessential Soviet class and generally filled the leading roles in planning and executing Soviet crimes like the Great Starvation (Holodomor) in the Ukraine, collectivization, dekulakization, the mass shootings by the secret police, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.* Because the mentality of Soviet Ashkenazim and Zionist Ashkenazim is so similar in many regards, it is hardly surprising that alienization, which made entire Soviet ethnic groups aliens in their own lands, has strong similarities to the Zionist process of dispossessing, murdering, ethnic cleansing and genociding the native population of historic Palestine."


This takes my mind to a newells old classic gambit:

"If they weren't slaughtered, where they are?"

So handily coined to endure thousand years, this cliche used to be so dearest to any truebeliever!.

 
At 22 December 2006 at 15:47, Blogger Matthew said...

Sorta reminds me of those very same etrocities when the Muslims invaded Spain and Europe several centuries ago. Still got that tunnel vision? It amazes me that people can't get past their hatred for one another over a piece of stuped territory. If you really think about this whole scenario, how ridiculously stupid is that fact that people are killing each other over a hill, and over belief systems...which have no factual evidence even exists...only books...and generations of stories to tell you that. If you are so bent on finding evidence, you need to start with the world religions...there are none to support them. If there were, which everyone claims...then there would be several different Gods who rule this earth. Like I said, I believe God performs miracles in my life...."Joe Muslim" believes Allah performs miracles in his! So which one is the "only" God? If it is the same God, which Muslims perclaim is true...then how am I wrong as a Christian, if he's performing miracles in my life. My point in this being...do you see how stupid human kind is? Do you see the things we are killing each other over? If there is an Allah...and if there is a God...he is ashamed of us...PERIOD!!! It is time to change this hatred into cooperation. It is time to change it into a freedom of religions, where we can live side by side in harmony...without worrying about how and who we worship. It's time to stop worrying about "Joe religion" blowing people up...all in the name of his form of religion. I'm sure that makes his god, whoever it may be, proud!! Can't you see that this oppression by the dictators of the middle east, and Asia is the real cause of this turmoil? The Jews, Christians, and Muslims have played their parts in this sort of stupidity for many centuries. If America is a place where any religion can practice their religion in any way they use, granted it doesn't harm or interfere with anyone else, then why are we the oppressors? Why should we not be the example? It's because of centuries of hatred, deception, and murder...and all stemming from a belief system....all of which never has been PROVEN to exist. As I said, faith and fact are not the same....but neither should lead to hatred. Meanwhile, I'll defend America's decision to try and give this freedom to people who have never had it before, and I'll enjoy my freedoms here in the land of religious freedom. If others want to continue to bring America down, blame them for their problems, then happy pouting. You'll go to your grave a dissapointed person. However, I would suggest doing something more constructive with you time, like worshipping your god...whoever it many be, and spending more time with friends and loved ones...spreading the idea of freedom...not hatred. Just a thought!

 
At 22 December 2006 at 16:11, Blogger LSU said...

anonymous the Holodomor was caused by the COMMUNIST USSR b/c the Ukraine was becoming independent in their social & economic categories. This did not sit well with the COMMUNISTS so they orchestrated a famine inside the Ukraine. Only way to keep COMMUNISM alive is to breed it from cradle to grave. SO they created a famine to control the Ukraine and to keep them in line.

But once again the JEWS are to blame..lol. If something or someone has a problem....blame a JEW.

Whoever you are anonymous I ask you one question: Are you a supporter of Communism and Nazism?

 
At 22 December 2006 at 17:30, Blogger Matthew said...

Just in case I'm not able to continue this discussion over the coming days.....Merry Christmas!!! If you don't celebrate Christmas, don't be offended. Take it as a gesture of good will....or sue me!!

 
At 23 December 2006 at 20:27, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mustaqim I want to thank you for having the courage to so boldly speak the truth.

The plaque on display at Auschwitz from 1948-89 touted the figure of four million. Today the same plaque reads 1.5 million casually reducing the number of deaths by 2.5 million.

Deaths at Auschwitz drop by a whopping 2.5 million, but the six million figure remains the same?

The following can be found online and read for free.

The Rudolf Report
Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects
of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz

Arthur R. Butz: The Hoax of The Twentieth Century: The Presumed Extermination Of European Jewry

David Cole Interviews Dr.
Franciszek Piper, Director, Auschwitz State Museum (video/transcript)

All of the prisoners of conscience.
A Slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts. Euripides

 
At 23 December 2006 at 21:52, Blogger Matthew said...

I guess I still have the same question, what exactly did Mustaqim prove? So because it is 1.5 million as opposed to 4 million...it's no longer a Holocaust? Here's the truth....There were Jews who were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis!!!! That's a Holocaust...whether it's 6 million or 1!! It was genocide....PERIOD!!

 
At 24 December 2006 at 09:08, Anonymous GP said...

Greeting and a Merry Christmans to Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

Mathew, with respect you can hardly claim one man's death a Holocaust in any sense!

Tragic as one man's death is to his nearest and dearest and witness's of an unjust act that caused his demise.

So therefore the question remains, HOW MANY PEOPLE MUST DIE FOR IT TO BE DEEMED A HOLOCAUST?

ALSO WHY IS IT ONLY THE JEW-ISH DEATHS THAT HAVE BEEN WRONGLY TERMED A HOLOCAUST, BEARING IN MIND THE BIBLICAL AND EXPLANATION OF WHAT A HOLOCAUST ACTUALLY IS, IN THE DICTIONARY.

Therefore i say again, there was deception from the moment a campaign was waged on the unsuspecting Christians and Gentiles of the world.

Now the term GENOCIDE has to be clarified, in that one race must have had a plan and carried out a plan or random act, in which they chose to eracticate a tribe or race of people from the earth, must be proven beyond doubt in the "Holocaust" claim.

Real and irrefutable documentation does not support this claim.

That isn't to say, that numbers of Jew-ish people were not exectuted unjustly and in high numbers, but guilt is guilt and a penalty for those acts must and should be carried out, but why the lie, why the exaggeration, why the laws about freedom of speech and research against revisionism, which is a first in history that any subject, topic, geological feature, archiologic artefact/fossil has an unjust restriction placed upon it.

WHY IS IT, ONLY TO DO WITH Jew-ish people and Jew-ish issues this weird law is brought into effect?

Can it truly be, that the world is seeing, what once the Italian Mafia were famed for, ie Criminality and covering up deeds and lies via threats, murder and extortion?

For those who do not know how many people were executed by the Germans during WWII, then they should not object to research and revisionism, nor should they be so adamant that genocide actually took place, as the CENSUS taken pre and after WWII, indesputable facts point some interesting findings out, to all those who choose not to ignore them.

Please do not take offence if you realise you have been fooled, because many Christians still decorate trees, which is forbidden, yet accepted.

Many Christians still buy into this Jesus/Yesua being born on 25th December, yet again it is untrue, so in short there are truths out there and there are beliefs and sometimes never the twain will meet, it doesn't make the messenger anti Christian to point out those facts, nor can it make one anti Jew-ish to point out anomalays in the official story, which expose it to be no more than profitable and clever propaganda.

 
At 24 December 2006 at 15:41, Blogger Matthew said...

Well Gp...I'll ask you this? Why am I the one who has been fooled? You still haven't addressed my comment to you above. What constitutes facts, if those facts are disputed? Why should I believe professors over those who experienced these tragedies? Round, round, round, we go!! Please don't feel badly, if you also have been fooled. I love it when people believe THEY have all the CORRECT answers...especially on issues where 1+1 definitely does not equal 2.

With my argument being said, I do look forward to these debates. Regardless of whether we are swayed one way or the other...I do believe it is good to hear both sides. And that...I appreciate!!

 
At 25 December 2006 at 06:42, Anonymous gp said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

My apologies Matthew for not clarifying the issues, to which you raise a question, that being WHAT CONSTITUTES FACTS?

Thus far you have relied upon hearsay, that being witness claims, in which on the surface may appear safe grounds, given that claims by "other forces" have been proven to be nonsenical and out right lies, but alas still has its problems.

Firstly, one has to discover what it is the witness's are stating they actually witnessed and if the claims made are unsupported by the facts, as i shall clarify in a while what we must look at as facts, then one has to discount eye witness accounts and rely on the facts.

To my mind, what constitutes facts in this issue, are the SCIENTIFIC discoveries, which prove a point one way or another and i will add that the weight of this evidence is firmly in the hands of the revisionists, especially the good work done by Gurmar Rudolph.

To my mind, what constitutes facts are the written documentation and records, which have become available in recent times.

To my mind, what constitutes facts are the experiments carried out at the scene of the alleged crime and one also has to commend doctor Frederick Toben for his contribution on this important issue.

To my mind, what constitutes facts, are the claims made, concerning a "Final Solution" policy, which implies that Hitler had ambitions to carry out an industrial plan to eliminate the Jew-ish race, or at least all Jew-ish peoples he could "get his hands on", are NOT supported with one shred of official documentation, which constitutes propaganda, which has made this whole aspect of history blown out of all proportion and taken on mythical status, thus hindering real debate and wish for scholarly investigation to verify the said claims.

To my mind, there is so much supporting evidence and behaviour of the propagandists, to lead any careful investigator to make assumptions, which give rise to some industrial form of cover up.

WE DO KNOW for a FACT, claims have been made surrounding this issue, which have been proven beyond doubt to be nothing more than disgusting lies.

WE DO KNOW for a FACT, claims have been made by Jew-ish people, puporting to be survivors of, or related to victims of the so called "Holocaust", WHICH HAVE PROVEN TO BE FALSE, BOGUS, NOT TRUE!

It would not surprise me that there are, or at least were survivors of the Auschwits camp, also it would not surprise me that there may have been people related to people who perished at the Auschwits camp, but that is NOT the issue here.

The issue IS that the EVIDENCE does NOT support the claims made, ie 6 million Jew-ish people were murdered by the Germans during WWII, by virtue of a grand plan designed by Hitler, called the Final Solution.

Finally, mass graves can easily identify whether those bones contain traces of Zyclon B, or were diseased etc.

It's simple Matthew, it cannot be a crime to investigate a claim of a crime.

Where there is cloud, may we have legitimate clarity?

Lastly a FACT cannot be disputed!

However a FACT can be denied, when a law is passed proventing legitimate debate and chance to openly prove the point to the wider world community.

Remember, it was in Frederick Toben's case, where the judge told him "THE TRUTH IS NO DEFENCE"!

That's how bad it is Matthew and even you know that cannot be right, lest you be arrested for a murder you did not committ and sent down for life, because the judge wasn't interested in the truth!

 
At 25 December 2006 at 15:39, Blogger Matthew said...

Gp...though I respect your ideas, because they are yours...I would suggest checking out this web-site on your "evidence" for the "Final Solution". I will get back to this either later today or sometime tommorrow, as I am leaving to visit family for Christmas. I would ask you this...what makes this information from this website, different from what you have found? I think this plainly spells out Hitler's intentions for the Jews. Hope you had a Merry Christmas!!

 
At 25 December 2006 at 15:41, Blogger Matthew said...

Well, it's probably hard for you to check out the website if I don't give it to you huh...sorry.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/

 
At 25 December 2006 at 16:09, Blogger Mustaqim said...

I tend to write articles rather than contribute to the discussion, but I do follow the thread and found this latest link most interesting. It is full of phrases like "It is generally accepted", "She is convinced that", "Historians have generally thought", "there are compelling indications", "discoveries allude to", "one could only speculate", and "must have known", with the only thing stated with certainty being that no documentary evidence exists. If that is the standard of evidence presented, which is even more flimsy than what we were recently dished up as proof of Saddam's WMDs, then it is not hard to see why for some people it requires the protection of the law to prevent further research. Let's hope this is not becoming the new standard by which history is now being written, which is why I support the argument that free and unhindered scientific research into historic facts should never be punishable.

 
At 25 December 2006 at 17:42, Anonymous Londoner said...

Mathew

Marine Boy Mathew seems to have an endless suply of bullshit. The worrying thing is that the yankee pillock actually belives his twisted Islam hating codswhollop.

Shame you are no longer on Marine boy duty getting your dirty yankee butt kicked. HAHAHA

Go bugger off and visit your dumbass family for xmas and give us all a break. At least you dont have a huge shitty wall preventing you from doing so, neither have their homes been reduced to rubble. Oh and watchout for that xmas pudding they have a tendancy to expode mwahahaha :-)

 
At 25 December 2006 at 19:06, Anonymous gp said...

Greetings Mustaquim and all sane users of this blog,

I agree with Mustaquim, having read this essay by the author Gord, with a telling title, namely, When did Hitler decide on the final solution? He rather wraps up his findings neatly, in an unwritten conclusion of "I don't know"!

He said she said, puzzles me as to how anyone can be convinced of anything,as the smoking gun is not produced, albeit i did detect some nuggets.

It is alleged in the piece that 500,000 Jew-ish people were murdered in 6 months between July and December of 1941, leaving if we are to believe the claim, another five and a half million to dispose of.

If we venture down this line of thought, we must assume that it would have been possible for the Germans to execute 1 million Jews per year, via shooting at these so called death camps and at a sprint, have executed the remaining five and a half million by 1945.

Oops, but that would mean all the Jew-ish captors would not have survived, in any case, why transport them to a camp in order to house, clothe, feed them and give them work, for the German war effort?

Why not stop the train on the way to Auschwits, in a nice quite place and finish the job and bury the evidence and lose all that cheap labour?

I say cheap labour, because they did have Jew-ish printed money available in the camps!

Which brings me to wonder where the bones of those alleged 500,000 Jew-ish bones are, as we would certainly need to confirm that story, via the historical and scientific work desired by the revisionists?

Also, why is the author not sure what the transported Jew-ish captors were killed with, i refer to his claim that Jew-ish people were gassed with carbon monoxide or Zyclon B. Why is he not stating for a fact that they used one or both, why the not sure in this serious issue and alleged account of events?

Rather than spend too much time on this essay, i would only say that it is severely unconvincing and i would have thought a view from a convinced Holocaust historian apt, as opposed to producing an essay with far too many wholes in it to consider.

You will note, that there appears to be an order pertaining to the Jew-ish problem, which mentions the emigration issue, i believe we can find further data to uncover what it entailed, with the many scholarly works produced and available at books shops and on the net.

I would suggest, a short cut to uncovering the hidden truth, is to allow the undeniable facts freedom to breathe and those who have uncovered such hidden gems, be allowed to continue their unbiased work, with independent witness's and cameras recording the events of course.

You see, the historians relied upon here, are unsure and are offering supposition, whereas the revisionists are much more firm in their findings.

Before i forget, we do know for a fact, that Auschwits was not the scene of 5.5 million Jew-ish deaths,as the museum clearly admits to a death count of 1.1 million PEOPLE.

Be that as it may, i'm sure there are Holocaust historians with a more solid explanation as to whether they can confirm whether Hitler had such an order to exterminate the entire Jew-ish population "he could get his hands on".

Christmas has been quiet, but i suspect the house will be full of nephews and nieces tomorrow demonstrating their new toys and showing me their new gifts.

Hope the family didn't follow certain patterns cliched in the media, ie the row!lol

 
At 26 December 2006 at 03:40, Blogger Matthew said...

Well, thank you Mustaqim and Gp for you classy answers...which is more than I can say for Londoner, who I won't even bother with. I suspect, that if the bodies were burned, that you wouldn't find anything. And if you rely on scientific research for your "facts"...well...then what does that say for your religious beliefs. And I'm not directing that solely to the religion of Islam...but religion in general. There are no scientific evidence for Islam, Christianity, or Judaism. And if I'm not mistaken, religion is exactly what this is really all about. Please show me your "scientific" evidence for your religion? Just wondering. Another question...did you totally overlook the diary entry by Goebbels? And one more question...let's just say that "The Final Solution" was never proven to exist...ver batem....is the fact that Hitler ordered his generals to exterminate the Jews not enough to constitute a "fact", that Hitler had a plan, and executed a plan, to exterminate the Jews? Seems like we're still running around in circles here. The point is, it is still a personal preference, so far as what you believe to be facts. Granted...we will never know the absolutel truth behind the "Holocaust". But if that's what we have concluded...then we can say the same about our religions. We really don't know. We weren't there....we have never truly come face to face with God/Allah...and all we have are feelings and "miracles" than can probably be proven at some point scientifally. Makes me wonder what all the fighting's about!!!

 
At 26 December 2006 at 03:41, Blogger Matthew said...

Oh yeah...stay classy Londoner!!

 
At 27 December 2006 at 15:33, Blogger LSU said...

Is this the same Frederick Toben who has ties to Nazism? As it appears on Wikipedia:

"Dr. Fredrick Töben is a "German-born Holocaust denier who lives in Australia and who has been convicted in Germany of inciting racial hatred" [1], founder and director of the historical revisionist Adelaide Institute, and author of at least eight books[citation needed] on education, political science and history.

Described as an anti semite[2] and widely regarded as a Holocaust denier,[3] Töben regularly denies the assertion, though he has on occasion indicated that he considers the Holocaust to be a "lie"[4] ostensibly perpetuated by "the Holocaust Racketeers, the corpse peddlers and the Shoah Business Merchants"[5]; he has further asserted that "the current U.S. government is influenced by world Zionist considerations to retain the survival of the European colonial, apartheid, Zionist, racist entity of Israel."[6] While he similarly denies being an anti-Semite or a white supremacist, he is a favorite among white supremacist organizations such as StormFront,[7] and his Adelaide Institute website has an unusual predilection for ubiquitously locating swastikas, often several per page of research or opinion."

Interesting that the people you hold to have the FACTS, are also the same kinds of people who have sympathies to those who committed the acts in the first place. I am still wondering what the answer is to what is considered a Holocaust? All I have seen here is dancing around it.

What is gained in trying to down play the Holocaust? Who gains from it? What is the final outcome of it? WE will still find that millions of Jews were led to the slaughter house. It does not change the outcome whatsoever. Hitler went after Jews all over Europe. I don't understand this need to try and rewrite history just to suit a certain kind of mindset. Now you can say that some died of starvation, disease, what have you but at the end of the day they still died at the feet of the Nazis. If the Nazis had not taken them hostage they would not have starved or got such diseases to begin with. Somehow you intentionally miss this FACT.

Until we end the opressive regimes in the Middle East and bring freedom (political, spiritual, economic, educational) then we will continue to get war and crazy history rewrites.

 
At 27 December 2006 at 15:42, Blogger Mustaqim said...

LSU: between 4 (lowest estimate) and 20 million (highest estimate) people died from execution, deportation, starvation etc. in the Stalinist purges, including the attempted Genocide of the Chechyans. We here in Europe are not allowed to answer this question, but maybe you can: Would this constitute a Holocaust? If not, what is the key difference that sets this planned mass murder aside from a holocaust?

 
At 27 December 2006 at 16:52, Blogger LSU said...

Hello doctor. Both are Holocausts if you ask me doctor. The differences b/w the 2 from what I have read is that in the case of Communist Russia they found that some were collaborating with the Nazis. In other words Stalin was afraid to lose power and so to shore up his power, just as North Korea is today, he executed and deported those who were not brainwashed into Communism. Hitler was just as evil, except he wanted to exterminate a certain type of people alone: the Jews. Stalin deported people from all over the place, one of those lands was Chechnya(spelling sorry).

The real difference lies in why was Hitler willing to go after Russia, if both were willing to do basically the same thing? And in that I mean commit mass murder on such a large scale?

 
At 27 December 2006 at 17:02, Blogger LSU said...

Which brings me to today's world. We have North Korea, we have Iran, Syria, etc all of which are flaming the fans of oppression. Yet when the civilized, good countries that want equality among men, try to take out those dictators who kill and oppress their own people, they are looked upon as evils themselves. It is a historical astonishment in and of itself. Here we have North Korea with execution chambers and yet the good people and countries allow it to continue with no end in sight. I thought the U.N. was there to stop such actions and to help the oppressed. But it does nothing but pass failed policies, which we, the USA, are alone in enforcing, with the exception of Britian & Australia. I just don't understand the mentality. Why does the world allow this act of evil to continue? It is no wonder that people thought Churchill was an idiot before WWII. People don't want to deal with reality anymore. It is much easier to get lost in fantasy worlds and movies that take them away from the bad, mean things that continously plague our world. Sooner or later it will have to be dealt with or the good people will cease to exist altogether.

 
At 28 December 2006 at 00:25, Blogger Matthew said...

Here's something else to chew on, while we're discussing the issues of what constitutes a Holocaust. Why do we never discuss the "Hindu Holocaust" in SE Asia, perpetrated by the Muslims....which may be one of the most prolific slaughters mankind has ever known? What about the "Armenian Holocaust" in what is today Turkey...also perpetrated by the Muslims, for which millions of "non-muslims" were slaughtered or taken into slavery? If we're going to discuss a Holocaust...well...why not discuss these also? I'll tell ya why...because in the eyes of those who want to deceive, The West is to blame for all bad things. Let's keep the issues on how bad things are in Europe and in the U.S. That way it will keep the focus off the real issues...the expansion of a brutal religion. Funny how Islamists want no part of any government system outside Sharia Law...but they want everyone to submit to "their" God..and their way of life. Some of us are not fooled....try as they may!!!

 
At 28 December 2006 at 02:41, Blogger Matthew said...

I figure part of the reason for the publicity of the Jewish Holocaust, is because of all of the videos, artifacts, and survivor documentaries we have. Keep in mind that Russia and the Eastern Block was totally closed off to the west until the 90's. If TRUTH is what you're looking for...why not tell us about the Hindu and Armenian Holocausts as well. Why isn't that publicised? Why not tell us of Mohammed's quests into Mecca, Medina, and later into Europe? Why not tell us that the "peace" in which Muslims refer to today, will only come after all the world is converted into Islam? Why not tell us about how the Islamists would allow non-Muslims to live, only if they paid a heavy tax to them? Otherwise, they were slaughtered. Isn't that what the Koran and Sunnah teach us? Didn't Khomeni, before he died, tell the "peaceful" people of Iran that it was their duties to spread Islam, by whatever means necessary? Meanwhile, we'll keep distracting everyone, by keeping their minds on that treacherous America and West. Please, tell us the TRUTH!!! You seem to know it!!

 
At 28 December 2006 at 10:09, Blogger Mustaqim said...

I don't intend to answer venomous diatribe or enter into a slinging match with somebody puffed up with hatred. Matthew's outpourings merely distract from the answer LSU gave, from wich I think we've established a couple of things:
- suffering injustice and atrocities is not a unique Jewish experience (although in many countries of Europe it is a punishable crime to relativate the Jewish holocaust and compare it to any other genocide, and such laws, in my view, are wrong)
- from the perspective of humanity all atrocities are to be deplored
- all, or most, empires are guilty of committing excesses and atrocities.
The only problem we have is that it seems many people in the US do not view their country as an empire capable of doing any wrong abroad. Why do I focus on America? Because America is the current only super power and self-declared ruler of the world, therefore deserves my current attention more than any historic one. Historically, empires come and go, but how America conducts herself currently affects us all.
Oh, and for that self-righteous idealistic world of the marine that "my country can do no wrong" and "it's the evil Muslims who cause all the bad things in the world", pop down to one of the few reservations still pitifully existing in your country and ask the descendants of the native Indians whether they blame the genocide of their forefathers and destruction of their civilisation on the Muslims.

 
At 28 December 2006 at 14:10, Blogger Matthew said...

First, you're one to be bringing up the "self-righteous" marine crap. Second, I totally agree with you about the Indians. I have said on MANY MANY occasions that our government has done crappy things over the years. The massacre of the Indians is probably the worst. However, you seem to think that by chastizing Muslims for "giving in" to infidels is your way of saying you feel that Muslims have done wrong also. You still take no responsibility for your own religion's part in this war. We've seen this type of Islamic movement before. And it turns out treacherous for those who CHOOSE not to reveal their allegiances to Allah. It may not happen this decade, or even the next. What Muslims are great at, is being patient and biding their time. They lay the foundation for further "imperializm" as you describe America's ambitions. I'm sick and tired of everyone blaming America for their own issues. And I want no part of a religion, who's basic principles include violence. We're not seeing Islamic extremism today...we're seeing basic Islam as is written in the Koran. Those who are not part of this so called "jihad" are passive Muslims, who either don't understand the Koran, or who just don't have the means to carry out this jihad. You're the one who brought up the Holocaust. If you're going to do it, you better be able to back up the Holocausts brought upon by your own. Bash away brother.

 
At 28 December 2006 at 15:50, Blogger LSU said...

Doctor you seem to be hell bent on hating the USA. We would not have to be in the Middle East or any where else if other nations would stand up for themselves. They call us into action before they send in their own troops. "Let the Americans come and fight" is the motto while "Our own troop sit back and watch". Lets not even discuss the U.N. and the blood at their feet, along with Kofi Annan. What have they done to stop evil dictators? Nothing. So if you think we are an Empire, you need to look at how often we are asked by those around the world to intervene on their behalf. Intervening on behalf of helpless people is hardly Imperial. It is a duty under God to help those in strife and suffering. When a natural disaster occurs who do they call? The USA. When a country gets invaded who do they call? The USA. ANd after we go in and take care of business we are shouted down for our helping hand by those we just saved from a tidal wave, a genocidial dictator, etc. An Empire are we? I don't think so. We are the lone superpower for a reason. Simply b/c we have the discipline economically, politicially, and dutifully to see to it that our kids have what we had and to preserve it for future generations of Americans. Why do people flood into the USA every year? B/c we know what the hell we are doing. I don't see people flooding into Iran or Syria for standard of living upgrades or a better life.

As far as Holocausts go, you are right. Holocausts are not solely "Jewish". I never said they were don't put words into my mouth. Russia as matthew pointed out, was closed off to the outside world, just as North Korea is today. Also alot of documents on those things were destroyed when the Soviet Union fell. We have so much documentation on the Jewish Holocaust compared to any other that it is futile to try and overturn it all. That is why this whole Iranian Conference is so stupid. It happened. Trying to rewrite history, especially those who support the very people who committed the acts themselves, is a little biased to me. Nothing is gained from it. Even if they are off 1 million people what does it matter? It does not change the fact that the Holocaust did in fact happen.

 
At 29 December 2006 at 14:58, Anonymous Anonymous said...

white is only white under clear light.

When you say devil has done this and that, while during 60 years you prevented free investigations, then it causes the opposite.

Banning things out from general discourse or blacking other thing out from peoples eye, supposedly to prevent whitewashing of established devil, is the cornerstone of some european states and the religion of today world police nations. For our health, lets not adhere blindly that stupidity. Let stop advising the benefits of doing this. It acts against.

History will always make its way to truth with or without anyone help, with or without guiding hand.

The bottom line now is made to look very clear: the day it is allowed 100% free research and 100% free speech is the day that devil commences turning into man and then maybe, who knows, into saint. Definetively, it is now clear, will not become more evil.

 
At 29 December 2006 at 15:44, Blogger Matthew said...

Thank you Anonymous...for whatever it is you just said!

 
At 29 December 2006 at 22:08, Blogger LSU said...

anonymous??????? Did I just read that correctly? The devil can turn into a saint? I am sorry I didnot understand anything you wrote above. It made absolutely no sense sir.

For once and for all can we get real names here too? Everyone is anonymous except me, matthew, and the Doctor. Are you people wanted in some foreign land or something??? Or are you unable to speak as free people inside your own nations? I watched last night about Christians in Iran having to sneak into basements in order to practice their faith b/c the Ayotallahs that run Iran and Shira Law forbid any other religious practices other then Islam. And you guys are worried about Jews and the Holocaust??? Take a look in your own backyard folks. You guys talk about 100% free speech in Europe about the Holocaust, then act like you got it in Iran for crying outloud. The Holocuast is over and done with. The Ayotallahs in Iran are here and now with their iron fist of "Islam or else". Where is your outrage over that kind of "free-speech" or lack there of?

 
At 26 January 2007 at 05:01, Blogger USpace said...

Good one, religious Nazis are bad news...


la pensée absurde -
Dieu de l'Univers dit a laissé
NOUVEAU Hitler a des armes nucléaires

ne pas craindre sa religion
il aime vraiment Israël
.

 

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